'DNA' Conversations: Preparing for the JEE Mains or any other engineering examination?

Most parents — all over the country — are in a state of anxiety when it comes to preparing their children for a course in engineering. Earlier, the child, in consultation with his parents, could decide which kind of exam to prepare for – the IIT-JEE (joint entrance examination for the Indian Institutes of Technology, the AI-EEE (All India Engineering Entrance Examinations) for National Institutes of Technology (NITs), the state government CET (Common entrance test) for other engineering colleges, and for the regular Higher Secondary Certificate examination.

Now, all engineering entrance examinations are sought to be combined into one, but HSC examinations results have also been given weightage. Admission to these courses has become so competitive – especially for IITs and NITs – that taking up special classes
that prepare you for such examinations has become a must.

Is this a good development? What does it hold out for students, their parents and their teachers? Will the new system lead to a better honing of skills?

In order to get answers to these and other such questions, DNA invited a panel of
eminent people who have excelled in preparing students for engineering entrance
examinations. The panel comprised (in alphabetical order): Mohit Goel, Chairman &
Director, Yukti Educational Services Pvt. Ltd.; Vivek Khanna, Co-Founder, 21st Century
Education Pvt. Ltd.; Vinay Kumar, CEO, Rao IIT Academy; Praveen Tyagi, Managing
Director, IIT-ian’s PACE Education Pvt. Ltd. and Jagdish Walawalkar, Founder &
Chairman, IDEAL Education.

Moderated by DNA’s RN Bhaskar, with editorial support from Karishma Goenka, the
discussion brought out some very interesting aspects about examinations and education. Given below are edited excerpts:

DNA: Last year, we talked mostly about the new pattern of examinations that was
coming in. This year, could we talk about what has happened on the examination
front? What is the status today?

Kumar: First of all, I would like to make it clear that this is the first time that the newly proposed pattern where CBSE [Central Board for Secondary Education] would be conducting the JEE Mains examination. About 12 lakh students are expected to sit for the examination this year.

Since CBSE has been already conducting AI-EEE, for which about 10 lakh students have appeared, we will have to see for ourselves how the JEE Mains exams are conducted, the paper pattern and the difficulty level.

We expect that the paper will be an easier paper than the AI-EEE because ultimately it is going to replace the state CETs. We do not expect it to be more difficult than the AI-EEE level otherwise most of the seats in the major states will go vacant. As things stand, this is what has been happening with most [non-IIT, non-NIT] engineering colleges for the past 3-4 years.

This is part of the government’s plan to promote the “One India, One Examination” concept. We will have to see how other bodies like BITS, VIT and other institutions accept it going forward because today there is no formal acceptance by them.

Also, many of the states have said that, from 2014, they are going to accept it. But we have seen Gujarat going back and conducting their examination this year itself. Maharashtra government also is conducting CET this year. Next year onwards, Maharashtra wants to adopt the common JEE Mains. So with government changes I don’t know what will actually happen.

DNA: What the future is.

Kumar: As far as the student goes -- for whom this entire exercise is being done – they are having more apprehensions and more anxiety because he does not know if the papers will be set properly [recent exams have shown up errors in the question paper], or whether they will manage to make it to the top 20 percentile.

The 20 percentile is important because he must rank among the top 1.5 lakhs who could
get admission to the best engineering colleges.

Only then can the student appear for the Advanced examinations. So the student has been going round in circles trying to comprehend how the new system will work. We’ll just have to wait and watch.

Walawalkar: This JEE Main and JEE Advanced – this formula has been worked out by the central government after a lot of deliberation and consultation. So first thing, I feel, is that there should be consensus. All state governments should fall in line.

Education is such an important subject, and there should be not be diverse opinions from different state governments. I feel that all state governments should come to a particular conclusion, and everywhere the same pattern should be implemented.

It should not happen that “A” government is accepting the new system, and “B” government is not accepting. It confuses everyone.

The second thing is that many state governments are taking a lot of time to come to a particular conclusion. That has also created a lot of confusion – confusion about engineering entrance examinations, confusion about medical entrance examinations.

So there should be a decision, well in advance, so that students who are coming out of 10th standard now will know exactly what they have to do if they want to go for engineering and medical courses. So a proper decision well in advance and uniformity among all the states – I feel these are the most important things that are needed today.

DNA: Vivek, your views?

Khanna: Yeah. I’ll talk more from the viewpoint of the children, what they are thinking
and how are they seeing the market.

DNA: Absolutely. We have to explain it to our readers.

Khanna: Till now, there were two types of coaching institutes in Mumbai; one that prepared students for national level exams like IIT-JEE, NEET, AIIMS, and AI-EEE. The IIT-JEE and the AI-EEE , have merged to become JEE Advanced.

The other type of institution was that which was primarily preparing students for MT-CET and the 11th-12th examinations. That has been changed to JEE Mains. All students must appear for JEE Mains to become eligible to appear for JEE Advanced.

Now, what has happened is that suddenly we are saying that they are going to remove this state level CET exam.

And let me explain, the Olympiads are the toughest exam. Then stand JEE Mains and BITSAT or NEET. Then stands MT-CET.

Now, what has happened is suddenly, from the viewpoint of the student, he doesn’t understand if JEE Mains is actually going to be implemented, “what is that I’m looking at?”, “where should I go?”, “where should I join?”, “whether I should join the IIT-JEE institutes which were catering for JEE Mains or whether I should join the state level institutes which were catering for MT-CET and all”.

JEE was an exam very few students would aspire for in Mumbai. So basically what happened was that the major market was for MT-CET.

Now, suddenly what has happened is another exam has become important, which is JEE
Mains, which was earlier AI-EEE, which a lot of students would not take. You wouldn’t
see many coaching classes displaying a board stating “I teach for AI-EEE.”

At the national examinations, just around 5% to 7% of the students got selected. MT-CET, on the other hand, especially on the engineering side [was not a problem], because even today the number of seats in engineering are more than the number of aspirants.

So there was an exam like MT-CET, which was easier and which used to give those colleges an adequate number of students. So if the examination is tougher, how will these coaching institutes going to get the number of students they want enrolled? That is a question mark.

From the student viewpoint, he is confused as to whether to join this institute or whether to join that institute. So this is a challenge in the minds of parents, and they are getting confused -- where should I join, what is JEE Mains all about, who can prepare my child well?

So the institutes on this side have to start preparing student for 11th-12th examinations, which, I think, is a very welcome step. And the institutes on the other side will have to learn to teach for JEE Mains. Many of them will have to upgrade their teaching and faculty.

Goel: Just to add to what Vivek is saying… In effect, this change, from a coaching class point of view, it is seen as a threat to the traditional 12th board coaching class institutes, and it is seen as an opportunity for IIT-JEE coaching class institutes because as we said that the JEE Mains is tougher [than MT-CET], so the 12th coaching class institutes are not used to that style and faculty.

I would also like to stress upon a couple of things. There are two major changes that have taken place. The first major change is that there is weightage given to the 12th standard board exam marks. For the past six, seven years, admissions to engineering colleges were exclusively based on entrance exams. There was no weightage absolutely given to the board exam marks. Now, in some formats, there is a weightage to the board exam.

And the second change is moving towards a single exam. Because of these two changes, there seems to be a lot of uncertainty, chaos, and confusion in the minds of the students. My personal point of view is that this is because it is being done for the first time.

Prior to 2006 – in fact, right from the time when even I was preparing for the JEE exam way back in ‘88, we had to prepare for the board exam for getting admissions to a local college and prepare for the JEE exam to get admission into the IITs.

And we used to write the Roorkee exam to get admission into Roorkee, which was a separate institute at that point of time. And right in the ’80s and ’90s, students had been balancing their studies -- preparing for board exams to secure the backup option of a local college and at the same time aspiring for the IITs.

So in terms of increasing the stress on the students because of the board exam element, I think the pressure is because of a change. So the uncertainty is there. But in actual academic terms, in terms of the effort that the student will need to put in, I don’t think board exam will put that much more pressure.

I’m not saying that implementing it is the right decision. I’m totally against giving weightage to board exam marks for admissions to engineering colleges. But I don’t think that this will put a lot of pressure on the students.

Typically, an exam like the board exam, tests the students on the same physics, chemistry, maths, that you must study for the entrance exams as well. A student who has understood the topic will not require more than a month or two to really prepare himself for the board exam. What we’re asking the student to do is to show his presentation skills.

A 17 year old student who is learning science and maths was learning language all these years. Presentation is something which is more a language skill rather than a conceptual skill.

So if a student understands the topics, expressing the concepts using right words is a two month effort, which is what we used to do way back. For the March board exam we would start in January. We used to wake up and spend two months preparing for the board exams and still get our 80%, 90% marks. So that is not really going to put too much pressure on students.

Board exam preparation is a very simple preparation, the real challenge is preparing for the entrance exam.

When it comes to entrance exams, there were two kinds of students earlier. Those aspiring for the national institutes like IITs and NITs and those going for local colleges like your VJTI, et cetera.

For the students who wanted to go for the national colleges it’s a big, big advantage, because they’re already preparing for a national level college exam. They were already trying for IITs, NITs now it’s much easier for them as their back-up option is more secure. But for students who traditionally used to prepare only for the local colleges, the new exams will require a lot more of effort.

But that big step up is only in the first transition year. Subsequently, every student will know how the exam is conducted, and how to prepare for it.. For the moment it’s clear that he has to prepare for a JEE Mains exam.

Administration wise, I think they have jumped the gun too fast. What they intend to do is have a percentile based formula, where they will compile the marks of the students across various boards and based on that calculate the weightage to the 12th board. It’s not such an easy task.

They have not yet been able to master a simple thing like issuing admit cards…which they have been doing for the past so many years. It’s not the first year they’re organising an All India Level exam. If they have mistakes at this level, coordinating with all the various state governments, getting the board exam marks in time, compiling it, spotting errors, is something which is far more complex. So these are some challenges which they will have to cope up with.

Tyagi: If we look at the whole situation in a little fundamental way, there is a thing called education learning process. Then there is an assessment called exam and then you have board exams, different exams. So, the thought was that we’ll have a unified exam is right, beautiful and undebatable. The child should not be stressed with multiple exams, should not be appearing for many exams.

So an ideal situation will be one where a child gives one exam, which is credible. Unfortunately, the very sanctity of the exam is defeated. Every day you hear and read in some newspaper that an exam paper was leaked and some teacher did this and that. So somehow we need to create an exam which enjoys credibility and which genuinely identifies merit.

That exam can be called JEE, or the board exam or whatever. In fact, I am of the opinion that even the board and the JEE should not be two different exams.

Basically the child is learning and why are you subjecting him to two different exams.

You want to have a written component, you have a written component. You want to stress on the writing skills of a child, you have that as a part.

So, basically the whole process of learning is grooming a child to become competent in the society or in the global scenario, competent enough to earn a livelihood, and learn the values that we want the children to have. So, keeping that in mind, unification of exams
is welcome, and I will suggest that it should go further to the level that even the boards and Mains should be, not two different exams.

So, the ideal situation will be having a unified, single exam, where the child is tested for his merit, concepts, understanding, comprehension, writing skills, everything and then, based on different parameters, you can take a decision whether he’s fit for engineering or medicine, or commerce, or whatever.

At present, our existing system has many exams. I think the process of evolution is underway here as well towards the ideal situation.

So, that process is going on. What we can do at the moment is, that the present system should be communicated properly. I feel that we as educationists, you as media, and the policymakers must all must be careful in ensuring that this confusion is removed.

Clear cut policies should be defined. A child starts preparing for his 12th board exams and competitive exams in advance, two years in advance at least. Therefore, any policy change you want to make, any change in pattern, has to be at least two years in advance. That is what I strongly pitch for.

Second is the issue of normalization of the marks given by different boards of various states. There is a lot of confusion. What do you do, for instance, when one board gives higher marks liberally, while in another board exam it is very difficult to get good marks. So, the board’s normalization is a process no parent is clear about.

Who is going to take the responsibility of giving him that clarity. I think all of us will agree that this process has not been defined and explained very properly to those students, has not been communicated, even if it has been defined in the government.

Thirdly, what we need to work on the fundamentals. We need to ensure that the child who is studying today should only focus on his concepts. It is important for the child to get conceptual clarity. Any kind of exam -- be it boards, be it IIT preparation, be it NIT’s, be it one exam or ten exams -- will not be a very great challenge if the child’s concepts are clear.

We all know that anyone who gets selected to any IIT can prepare for his board exams within a few days, and even get a high percentage marks. If he gives AI-EEE seriously, he’ll get a good rank in AI-EEE also. If the CET is fair, then you will find the same people doing very well in CET also. So, it’s all about conceptual clarity.

DNA: Absolutely.

Tyagi: So, it is not too much of an exam thing. But yes, there are students who – because of this anxiety and because of this changing patterns in 2006 – end up performing badly. There was this son of a principal, I do not wish to name, who on the last day didn’t even write his exam, because because the pattern was changed from subjective, which they were preparing for over one and half, two years, to an objective exam. He was very nervous. So, we have to understand that the child’s requirements have to be taken care of
and things have to be properly communicated in advance. This is what I have to say.

DNA: Everyone seems to be agreed on two points, one, the need for a uniform examination preferably a single examination and the need for clarity, to remove confusion.

How do you think this confusion can be resolved? Is it the government? If neither the government nor the media clarifies, you will also give your own little spiel. But how do we resolve the situation?

Walawalkar: It has to be government, because the education policy emanates from
there.

Goel: I would say that once the first JEE Mains exams and the first JEE Advance exam take place and the admissions get over in the month of July, clarity will dawn on students who are studying in 11th, 10th, 9th, 8th because they would know that henceforth this is how it happens.

The government has not been sensitive enough to the needs of the immediate batch because there is a lot of confusion. All that the3 government needed to do was to clearly state out that this is how the admissions are going to take place, this is what it means.

Walawalkar: Different states should not have different procedures. We may be having a clear idea of the process in Maharashtra; but that is not the situation in other states. Secondly, whatever you’re deciding now it should have a validity period. You cannot suddenly change a system just because a new minister comes to power. Similarly, there shouldn’t be changes Again, there should not be unplanned changes. That is the least what should be expected.

Khanna: Coaching classes were frowned upon earlier, because they were not part of the official ‘recognised’ educational system. But whenever we have seen a school calling a coaching institute for a tie-up, we suddenly find a son of a trustee or a daughter of a trustee or a son of principal needing the coaching institute for his/or her entrance exams preparation. It is then that then they become open to such ideas of cooperation.

Kumar: During the last four years I have seen the city changing. Earlier, formal school and colleges used to see us maybe like enemies or something like that. Today, they are seeing us as partners. We are even tying up with many [so-called ‘formal’ educational] institutes. Today, we have one of the highest numbers of tie ups in the city.

Now in last three, four years, all the colleges and the teachers, they have understood that we have become an integral part of the system. Those who did not agree to the concept earlier, have now agreed to such tie-ups.

Khanna: Whatever tie ups we are getting, is very right, but what is happening is if we go the legal angle, there are a lot of legalities through which all these things may be permitted, may be not be permitted.

DNA: Let’s take the issue of upgrading the teacher’s skills. One of the reasons why the coaching classes became relevant to the entire system could be the growing irrelevance of main stream teachers in recognized institutions.

Walawalkar: Some states – in some states.

DNA: Oh, in some states they are recognized? The coaching class is recognised?

Walawalkar: I think Karnataka recognises coaching classes.

DNA: Ok, let’s me phrase the question differently. You have a situation where teachers are growing irrelevant in most recognized schools. The reason they are becoming irrelevant is because the best talent comes to your coaching class.

Walawalkar: I can explain. It is because the teachers lack responsibility.

DNA: Is it money or is it responsibility.

Walawalkar: The responsibility is not fixed on them. So you go to any professional today, doctor, advocate, chartered account, when I take money from my client there is a responsibility fixed on that professional to see to it that person is through. This responsibility is lacking in case of teachers of educational institution.

DNA: So it’s a management problem.

Walawalkar: Yeah.

DNA: So in other words if the responsibility were there, this problem would not have been there?

Walawalkar: Coaching classes won’t come into existence; I mean they will get wiped out.

Kumar: It’s a harsh remark.

Khanna: They want harsh remarks.

Walawalkar: Let me explain. I can say this because I have seen it personally. I must be the only person who has worked on the both the sides [Walawalkar used to teach in a college before he started his own coaching institute].

Goel: Right.

Tyagi: Instead of saying that they don’t have that responsibility, actually the system has
to be such that reward the people who are good and competent.

When you see that I am working hard with the students, and the other teacher is just coming and giving attendance and going away and still gets his salary, you disincentivise the good teacher. We need to incentivize the good. We need to pay based on performance. Recognition at least, if not payment.

One more thing. I feel that school teachers or college teachers are doing their job well for
what they are supposed to do. The problem comes in when an institute starts training [the student] for a more difficult examination. Then the student begins to think that the school teacher is not as good as the coaching institute teacher.

Abhi kya hoga ke koi chai pi raha hai, to usko rasgulla khila dijiye, to usko chai phiki
lagne lagegi. [Translated: What will happen now, if someone is having tea and you gave
him Rasgulla he will not feel the sweetness in the tea.]

We discovered this since we are running Junior science colleges also now for almost three years -- me and Mohit are in that space.

When you are responsible for both you realize this. You are running a system where you want to deliver for board performance. Also you have teachers and you want to ensure that the child is happy, and yet does very well in board exams.

I’m talking with an experience of seven, eight years of working with schools and three years of running my own junior institute and colleges. I know that the moment you ensure that, competency and quality will be respected, even ordinary teachers become stars in their way. All you need to do is to ensure a feedback driven mechanism. That is what is lacking [in many schools].

Abhi ek class mein apne government ne teachers appoint kar diye, uske baad you can’t
remove them whether woh accha pada rahe hai ya kharab pada rahe hai. [Translated:
Now in a particular class, if any teacher is appointed by our government, then you cannot remove them, whether they teach well or don’t teach well].

The moment you will have that feedback driven mechanism in place, teachers who are doing well and doing justice to the students are retained in the system. Those who are not doing justice to the students should be thrown out of the system.

DNA: So in effect, Praveen you are saying that what Jagdish said, management plus incentive would make even an ordinary teacher achieve much more.

Tyagi: Yes. Our objective is to upgrade the education system. The reason we all are into this profession is because we want to provide quality to the students that is lacking in the system. So if comes into the system we will in some or the other way become part of it because of our competency.

Khanna: Coaching maybe wrong if you are teaching in a school, but are not teaching well and then you are going outside, and trying to get the students along with you as private students. What we are teaching – how to cope with entrance exams – is something that the school was never supposed to teach. So, we are not competing with the schools even, we are supplementing the schools.

Kumar: But we are talking of a big education system. And when we speak of India which is such a big country in itself, bringing in any big change is a very, very daunting task, no matter for any government.

Goel: What Vivek was trying to say is that the school and college domain is to teach for 11th and 12th and board, not for JEE Main and JEE Advanced.

Walawalkar: Right.

Tyagi: Take the example of the PACE junior colleges [which Tyagi runs]. I have not taken any grant from anyone. I can charge higher fee. We have delivered result on the board angle also.

The Maharashtra toppers, and the IIT and also. Now why can’t more such institutions be allowed and competent people, teachers, run such systems. What is happening now, with many schools across India, they are all owned by politicians, industrialists. Rs.100 crore building main lage huye hai. Lekin, [Rs100 crores are spent on building, but,] when it comes to paying teachers they don’t want to pay.

They are running those schools with housewives turned teachers. So why can’t you spend money at the right place. If the government has to give land [for schools and colleges] why does it have to go to politicians?

The children who are attached to us, the children who are producing gold medal for the nation in international Olympiads and who are achieving top ranks in the country, we don’t only teach them physics, chemistry, math. We inspire them. We change not only them academically but also their personalities. So please understand that.

And see the proof. You see across the country, 80%, 90% of the IIT result comes from the coaching institutions.

The people who are moulding the intelligence here, are training the intelligence here, are training the best of the brains of this nation, why is that component not recognized, why is that component not being respected?

Walawalkar: I fully agree with what Praveen says.

Walawalkar: In fact. I will just add one more thing to – It will make sense if the government restricts itself only for the assessment part. Let the child take education anywhere, whether in a government college or a private school or a private class, let the child or his parent decide.

And let the government restrict its role only for conducting the examination. Examination and evaluation. So there should be a separation between teaching and assessment. Then the system will work in a fantastic manner.

Tyagi: We run eight junior sense colleges in Mumbai, two in Pune — the Pune Municipal
Corporation has allotted to us — and we are working with 25 schools Pan India, including DPS, Mathura Road and DPS Bokaro.

So it is not just the coaching part that we are doing. We understand the education system and we are delivering not only the results of IIT.

These top rankers, these IIT-ian’s, these are divine children. They are amazing people, amazing human beings.

DNA: So effectively, what you are saying is that the management input in the junior colleges and the other schools that you look at…

Tyagi: I have proven the model. Feedback driven mechanism and competency.

Unfortunately, we are ignored by the government. Land for schools is granted to Rajiv Shukla, to Sharad Pawar, to the CM’s relatives. Why is that land not being allotted to
talented people?

Why can’t we acknowledge merit? Why can’t we acknowledge ke bhai koi insaan jisme talent hai woh padhake paisa earn kar sakta hai [Translated: that a person who is
talented can earn money by teaching]

Be it a DPS Bokaro, be it DPS, be it – this year we have collaborated with Sanskruti School, also in Delhi. Now five joint secretaries in Delhi want their children to be a part of PACE. They took our proposal to the principal as parents and got the tie-up done. What I’m saying is this is going to happen for sure and this is happening.

Walawalkar: If assessment is done by the government or government body that will be great. Secondly, coaching classes or whatever you call it, the private institutions I call it, they are going to stay here for a longer time than people imagine..

Like Vivek said for competitive exam there is no coaching given by the government, so private people are doing that, so they will definitely remain. One more thing is that instead of restricting private players, it’s a private institute, if government takes steps to improve the existing setup what they have created then automatically this confusion will not arise at all.

They should improve the standard of their municipal school or government school or Zillah Parishad school.

And lastly, when you consider the role for this private people more and more, I feel that there should be an organization of these private people to regularise.

DNA: There must be a regulator for education.

Walawalkar: Because if this industry grows -- and it is going to grow in a big way -- so
there should be a regulatory body.

Tyagi: But that regulator can do the reverse also.

Walawalkar: No, so in that case we should form it first. The software industry did that – with Nasscom. If you don’t do it yourself, someone else will come.

Tyagi: A self-regulatory body.