'Attacks on Indian students were sensationalised'

Earlier this week, a mafia drug lord was gunned down in broad daylight in a Melbourne café. It was the 30th such inter-gang warfare slaying in Melbourne in seven years, and a stark exposure of the city's underbelly. Despite this and the pressing demands on his time, Victoria Police chief commissioner Simon Overland sat down for an exclusive interview with DNA in Melbourne to address issues relating to the recent wave of attacks on Indian students in Victoria. Exceprts:

The attacks on Indians have been going on for many months now. Why has the Victoria Police not been able to put an end to this?

The starting point is to put in a context, which is a shift in offending patterns, and around robberies. If you go back over the last 10 years, we have reduced the number of robberies and armed robberies in Victoria by about 50%. What we have seen over the last 18 months to two years is a slight increase in street robberies. That’s a shift in the pattern of robberies.

If you go back 10 years, robberies were primarily armed robberies of banks and businesses. We have stopped that. They then moved from the 'hard targets' to 'softer targets' — 711 stores, supermarkets, petrol stations… We stopped that, too. Now we are seeing a move to street-based robberies, and it's international students who have been caught out in those.

But it's only a slight increase — about 3% over the last 12 months: but we have known that international students are over-represented as victims of these types of crimes — for a number of reasons, but primarily because they are vulnerable, because of where they live, and because they rely on public transport, tend to move around late at night and often by themselves, and also because (since they are coming from universities) they are carrying quite a bit of gear with them — laptops, phones... They are also perhaps unaware of some of the things happening around them, and they don't think about protecting themselves.

So we have seen this slight escalation in street-level robberies, which are primarily committed by groups of young men, who pick on an individual and rob them. That's the issue we have seen. We have been responding to that for about 18 months to two years. And it is taking us a while to get on top of it. But it's actually quite a challenging problem because it's quite dispersed, right across the metropolitan area. And out in the west (western suburbs of Melbourne), where we have been focussed on the longest, the numbers are actually decreasing over the last 12 months. The challenge is to have that happen right across the state.

You speak of 'overseas students' generally. But Indian students have been over-represented as victims of these street robberies. Why is that?

It's not just Indian students; even Chinese students are over-represented. But Indian students in particular are vulnerable for a number of reasons. Some of these attacks, undoubtedly, are motivated by racist elements. No question about that. There is some racism is in this. But a lot of it goes back to issues of vulnerability. Indian students tend to live in very poor areas because of housing issues and their need for low-cost housing. Many of them are struggling financially.

More than the other overseas students?

Yes, and they live in very poor areas. They are in situations where they need to study and work. So they are working casual jobs, which might take them late into the night. Again, more than other overseas students. We know that Indian students in particular are struggling economically. So that's another factor as to why they are more vulnerable. Because of where they live and the work that they are doing, the late hours... it's not a complete explanation, but it's another factor.

Initially, you rejected the notion that these were "racist" attacks, arguing that they were "opportunistic" in nature, but now you concede that some of them were indeed racist in nature. Did the facts change or did your perceptions about them change?

I've never rejected that. I've always said, when I was asked about it, that undoubtedly some of it is about racism, but equally a lot of them is opportunistic. But I've also made the point: it doesn't matter, it's wrong. Violence is wrong, and we need to stop it. That's what we have been trying to do.

Have the intensified patrolling measures you have now introduced in high-crime neighbourhoods restored the students' confidence?

Recognising the problem focussed on the robberies, we realised that international students (and Indian students in particular) were over-represented in the western suburbs. For well over the past 12 months and more, we have worked with colleges and universities out there to talk about crime prevention and go and talk to the students, make them aware there is a problem. We have also put in place some elements of law enforcement. We have doubled the size of a dedicated team that looks at street robberies. We have made a significant number of arrests, particularly in most of the high-profile cases, and charged them and put them before courts. We are continuing to do that.

We have also been going to the local high schools, from where many of the offenders come. Many of them are juvenile. We have been going to schools and telling the students not to do this, because when we catch them they will have a criminal history. We have been working at that level.

We have brought together a whole group of people into the Indian reference group. It involves the (Indian) consul-general, the universities, other representatives of student bodies, multicultural groups working to find more broadly based solutions. Because there is a whole range of issues here as well. It’s partly about the educational standards and the promises made to Indian students before they come.

There are very reputable educational institutions in Australia, but there are some private institutions that aren't as reputable as we'd like and are, perhaps, misrepresenting the situation to Indian students. So (the students) are disappointed when they come here, they are not quite getting the employment opportunities they wanted. They often find themselves in situations where they are being exploited, so they aren't being paid enough or they are forced to work long hours, they have been forced to live in substandard housing, and that's not okay. There are issues around permanent residence, there are issues around what support they have while they are here — for instance, access to public transport. My understanding is that international students don't get discounts on access to public transport in the way the other students do. So there is a whole series of issues.

Security is one of them, and it's important. But my sense from talking to Indian students is that there is a lot of dissatisfaction on a whole range of other issues. They need to be addressed — because we are encouraging students to come here and study and we need to make sure they are looked after properly when they are here.

Were the events of the past fortnight a wake-up call for the Victoria Police?

We didn't need to wake up. We were the first ones to recognise that this was a problem, and we have done all this work. One of the things that surprised me most is that some of the people who have criticised us most are the people who have been working with us and who understand exactly what we have been doing, and what we have been trying to do.

Do you mean the student community?

Yes. I don't quite understand why the criticism has come when they know everything that has been done. There is always a lag around putting measures in place and achieving the outcomes you want to achieve. It takes time. I've been frustrated because I don't think there has been a proper acknowledgement of all the work that has been done or is being done. Yes, we need to do more and we are doing more. So this wasn't a wake-up call. We already knew this was a problem, about two years ago.

Even as of last week, some Indian students I spoke to have been carrying pepper spray and chilli powder in self-defence. Isn't that a loss of confidence in the police force?

It is, and we are very concerned. But some of the lack of confidence is not well founded. Some of it is actually because of misinformation or lack of understanding of everything that has been done and is continuing to be done. What it says to me is that we need to work harder to make sure that the student body understands everything we have been doing, to reassure them that they are welcome here, we take their safety seriously. That's the challenge for us.

The additional measures we have been talking about are really across the state. Because the problem is not just in the suburbs. Work is being done in those other areas. Now, we have provided some whole-of-state coordination; it was an initiative that was tending to be done in their respective areas, but we have now provided some coordination to that. We'll now provide additional resources to deal with this particular issue.

One of your officers said earlier this year that one of the reasons why Indian students were vulnerable to attacks was that they "talked loudly in their native language". I've spoken to Australian academics, sociologists, and community leaders, and they say such a characterisation is dangerous and amounts to blaming the victim. Is that view widely shared in the force?

No. We have got 14,000 staff. Sometimes people say things. I think we need to be very careful, and I've tried to be very careful, around this whole issue of race. Australia is a very diverse community, we have a multicultural approach, which is about being open and inclusive and welcoming to people from all over the world who come here to live and work and study, and even visit. And I think we have been really successful in managing some of the tensions that come with that. But you need to recognise that there are challenges that come with that.

But I think blaming the victim by saying it's the victim's fault is not helpful. What we need to say is: there are issues there that we need to work with the community. It's a two-way process: it's about having the community understand, and about us understanding the community. And work together so that we get the outcome we want. Sometimes it might be about a change of behaviour. But it might sometimes be about saying, 'If you can, don't go by yourself. Don't overtly display your valuables, if you can avoid it. Keep them hidden away.'

But that's general advice we would give to everyone, not just to Indian students. There are lots of vulnerable people who could find themselves in a situation where they might be attacked. That sort of crime prevention work is something we do all the time, not specifically to Indian students.

You now say you want students to travel in groups. But when they were travelling in groups, seeking safety in numbers, they were asked to disperse and accused of being a vigilante force…

We don't encourage vigilantism. But on public transport systems, in particular, we encourage them to travel together. As a result of what we are doing, safety on trains has actually improved over the last 12 months. There are fewer attacks on trains now. Many of the attacks now are happening when people come and go to the stations — in parking lots or on the streets on their way home. Because of what we have done, crimes are getting 'displaced'. Initially it was on the trains; we increased policing on the trains. The problem has now moved on the way to and from the train stations. So now, we are focussing on those.

How do you plan to do that? Are you planning to install CCTV cameras?

There are CCTV cameras in a lot of the stations, but the problem is on the streets around the train stations.

So, do you put more policemen on the ground?

Yes, and we have to be running operations around those areas. It's about understanding where and when the offences are happening. And running increased activities overtly and covertly.

Will these initiatives continue even after the attacks go off the front pages of newspapers — or will you lower your guard?

It's not about lowering our guard. This is the nature of policing: we solve one problem here, there will be two more over there.

If we hadn't changed our approach, we'd still be guarding banks. Banks aren't robbed by and large anymore. Armoured cars aren't robbed by and large anymore. Ten years ago, they were. Shops aren't being robbed any more — not as much as they were. It's now what we call 'soft targets'. That term itself has been problematic. I understand and I apologised for this when the Indian students felt that we were specifically referring to them. It's a term we use, which really applies to everyone who is in a vulnerable situation. That could be me, if I found myself in the wrong place at the wrong time, late at night and a group wanted to pick on me.

The point is that the students don't have a choice. That's where they live, so they have to go. That's one of the reasons they are vulnerable.

Generally speaking, do Indian students give the Victoria Police force a difficult time? Are they at all involved in street fights, drugs, muggings, etc? The reason I ask you is that from what I've seen and heard, they are probably vastly under-represented in any kind of criminal activity — partly also because they have a vested interest in having a clean record (since they want to acquire permanent residence in Australia). Is the characterisation of them as trouble makers — when they organised themselves to draw public attention to the attacks — fair?

By and large, Indian students are very peaceful. We do sometimes have Indian offenders, but then we have offenders from every race and culture that comes to Australia. But most of the offences are done by white people. The whole race element around understanding crime through race is really not a very helpful analysis. But by and large, the Indian population and the Indian student population are very peaceful, law-abiding, responsible people.

Indian students have made the charge — and they have probably made it to you as well — that when they go and report a crime, the local constabulary says, 'You move on, we'll take care of it'.

There may be cases where the response has not been appropriate, and we need to make sure it is. But I know of particular cases, where students have raised issues, and I've gone and looked, and what they have said is not right. The case has been dealt with, the offenders have been arrested, the students have been kept informed, they have been provided with welfare and financial assistance. They have been advised that they can get compensation once the criminal matter is resolved.

I do accept there are some problems, and we need to keep working to make sure the service is the best we can make it for every individual, but I don't accept a general proposition that we haven't responded effectively to this. We have, and the evidence is overwhelming that we have, because of the arrests we have been able to make and the number of people we have charged.

How concerned are you that Australia's image as a preferred destination for Indian students has been seriously dented by the recent spurt in crimes against Indians, particularly in Melbourne, under your watch?

Obviously, I am. But this is one of the problems: the facts are very clear. Victoria and Melbourne continue to be very safe communities by world standards. We are a safe place. The problem we always have is the perception, and the way perception is generated through the media primarily, and through crises like these.

I'm not saying there is not a problem here that we don't have to deal with. There absolutely is. But the way it's been represented has created a perception that (a) it's much more significant and much worse than it is, and (b) we have not done anything about it, which is simply not true. We knew about this 18 months to two years ago, and we have been working away at it.

What specific criticism do you have against the media coverage, particularly in India?

I don't think it's been fair and balanced: I think it's been sensationalised. Don't get me wrong: some of the individual cases are shocking. The violence that has been witnessed is terrible, terrible. It's a shocking thing, and I absolutely condemn it, and it's not okay — whether it's an Indian, Chinese, or Australian. And that's what we need to deal with.

But I think the extent of it has been sensationalised. And it's not been fairly reported in terms of our understanding of the issue and our response to it — which is not in reaction to what happened two weeks ago. As I keep saying, we have been working on this for 18 months.

What do you think of the Australian media response?

It has been an interesting response from the Australian media. There have been sort of two lines: one has been to acknowledge the problem and talk about it, and give publicity to it. The other has been a bit defensive around the issue of race. And I think there is a great deal of sensitivity about the issue of race.

Some Australian commentators make the point that better policing could have averted these attacks.

Better policing has dealt with the issue of violence. We have had significant reductions in crime: crime is down 23.5% in Victoria over the last eight years. So they are right. We have been challenged around violence in the central business district on a Thursday, Friday, Saturday night, which is largely around licensed premises and alcohol. We are dealing with that. We are dealing with this issue, but the point I am making is: it's not always about policing.

People are very happy to put their problems on our doorstep and say 'this is for you to fix', and I accept my part of the responsibility for dealing with it. But there are other people with responsibility around this. In a city it's around regulation of liquor and other issues around it. With the Indian students and other international students, there are a whole series of other issues that need to be dealt with. If they come here and we put those students in a situation where they need to live where they are living, and they have to come and go in the circumstances that they do, they would continue to be victims because they are vulnerable. There is a lot that we can do to help. But we can't solve this by ourselves. Because there are actually a lot of issues here, and they are not within my control.

Are the law enforcement and judicial systems softer on juvenile crimes?

'Softer' is one way of describing it, but, yes, there is a lot more latitude extended to juveniles, and people would say there are good reasons around that. But that is an issue here. A lot of the offenders are young offenders, so they are under 18 years of age. That's an issue for us. They get caught, they get put before the court, they get bail and they are out. They re-offend (sic). They get caught, they get put before the court, they get bail, and they are out again. So we know there is a relatively small number of young offenders who are repeat offenders who are driving all of this stuff. So that's an issue as well.

Does the Victoria Police feel the need to work with community organisations to address the problems of juvenile alcoholism and drug addiction?

Yes, absolutely. Our whole approach is predicated on that. We have policemen going to the schools. We work with the community at many different levels. We work really hard to engage with our multicultural communities in Victoria, because it is a very diverse community. We have got many hundreds of nationalities living in Victoria. We do a lot of work around engaging with those communities, improving communication, improving understanding, and having people understand that they are entitled to be safe while they are here, and that they can trust us and they can work with us.

The point has been made that even the police force needs to reflect the multicultural diversity of the community.

I agree. Absolutely.

How multicultural is the Victoria Police?

Nowhere near as multicultural as it should be.

What impedes you?

A whole series of things. There is history, around the sort of people who come... But one of my goals is to actually make us much more representative of the community we police. And so that's about recruitment. There are a lot of reasons to engage with the multicultural communities to actually make sure that not only do they feel safe, but that they also see they can come and work for us.

We have launched an initiative earlier this week, one that we have been working on for some time. We engaged six 'new and emerging communities' liaison officers. We have got persons from Sudan, Eritrea, Chile... these are people who come and work with the Victoria Police to engage new and emerging communities.

We have had multicultural liaison officers in the community for a long time, whose job is to help us engage with those communities. We have had, for instance, aboriginal liaison officers, because we recognise there are particular challenges in dealing with new and emerging communities.

We have dinners with different communities. We get together with, for instance, the Muslim community once a year, with the Jewish community likewise once a year... We have a multi-faith council, which once a year brings leaders and religious representatives from right across the community together to work with us to talk about policing issues and to talk about how we can better engage with the communities.

This hasn't been understood. There has been a lot of very misinformed, ignorant criticism of the Victoria Police. I get a little bit annoyed about so-called experts and commentators coming along and saying, 'If the police did a better job, this wouldn't be happening'. Well, they may like to take the time to inform themselves of exactly what we are doing before they offer opinions about how to deal with this issue.

You have taken over only some months ago, and you have a full term ahead, and no historic legacy to defend. What vision do you have for the Victoria Police, particularly in the context of recent organised crime violence, and how do you propose to change the way the police is perceived by the public?

If you ask the people here, they actually have a very good opinion of the Victoria Police. Some of what happened here has become an international issue and it has been quite distorted in terms of the view and the reporting of it. We need to work to address that, obviously.

But what is at the core of policing hasn't changed for 200 years and won't change. It's about looking after the community and making sure it's safe. That's our job. So in terms of my vision, it's about looking after the community and keeping it as safe as we possibly can. But we have to do that with the community. We have got our job to do, but we can't do it on our own. We are actually much more effective when we work with the community and the community works with us.

One of the problems with law enforcement is the perception that if it's a safety issue, the police is responsible. But there are things that are in our control that we should be responsible for, but there are a lot of other issues that other people are responsible for, too. That's the case with pretty much any major crime issue you talk about. There are things that we can and should be responsible for and we will be responsible for, but others need to play their role as well. And so the challenge for us is to work with the community, to work with partners, with other people to make sure that everyone does their bit.

That's the direction that the Victoria Police has always pursued. My job is to make sure we continue to do that. What changes is the context and the environment and we need to be able to respond to changes in those. They change quickly and in unexpected ways. That's the challenge.

What has been lost in this is that we are successful and we have been successful in reducing crime, death on the roads, working with communities... all of the objective evidence and data survey results we do show that. But that doesn't get listened to in an emotive — and understandably emotive — response to violence on the streets.