‘We all have historic ties with India’

Great minds at work: Honorary consul general of Kenya, Ramavtar Goenka, consul general of the Netherlands, Hans Ramakar, and consul general of Malaysia, Wan Zaidi Abdullah, in the DNA office:

Sidharth Bhatia: We welcome Hans Ramakar, the consul general of the Netherlands, Wan Zaidi Abdullah, the consul general of Malaysia, and Ramavtar Goenka, honorary consul general of Kenya, to DNA. India has ties with all three countries. The Dutch set up their East India Company but found India uninteresting and moved on to Indonesia (laughter). Kenya and India also have historic ties as do Malaysia and India. We’d like to start with each of you discussing your country’s relationship with India and Mumbai.

Wan Zaidi Abdullah: Malaysia is a familiar country for Indians as many have been there for business or tourism. Malaysia and India are close due to regional and cultural proximity. This was formalised when the British brought Indian workers to Malaysia to work in the plantations and other sectors. In 1957, Malaysia was liberated and those who had stayed on got Malaysian nationality. This also includes part of the population which is of Chinese origin. So we have 10% population of Indian origin in Malaysia. We’ve had diplomatic relations with India since 1957 and in over 50 years we’ve never had any strain in our relations. Our relationship has expanded well beyond the cultural sphere to political, economic and social. Both India and Malaysia are developing countries and we work hand in hand for the benefit of the region.

Hans Ramakar, Netherlands: Our relations with India date back several hundred years. We have settlements of Dutch trading posts and fortresses and, unfortunately, most of them are in an awful condition. But that is not 100% our fault. We spend money renovating them but upkeep is difficult. Some may not know that one of the largest archives of the Dutch East India Company is still in India. We are trying to restore them. The documents are crumbling.
It is part of your and our heritage. We came here in 1600s and the main intent was to discover the world. I think we did not trade directly with India as much as between India, Indonesia and Malaysia — mainly textiles. We transported textiles from Gujarat for instance, to Indonesia. Trade between India and the Netherlands started later and then developed. We looked at the possibility of trading more than colonising. Indonesia was an exception.

Dutch majors have long been in India. Shell was one of them, which was part nationalised. Unilever has its headquarters in Rotterdam, that’s Dutch-British. At the moment, all the Dutch majors are represented here. The notable exception is the agriculture sector which is strange because India has a large agriculture sector and that is what we are good at. Perhaps many small-holders are not in a position to buy Dutch technology. There is a mismatch here. We are working towards some rationalisation in the agriculture sector in India.

There is a large interest about India in Netherlands, always has been. The Netherlands know Annie Besant, J Krishnamurthy, architects like Charles Correa. We know your literature. Last year, we had an India festival which was well received. If you want to study Indian music, the only chair outside India is in Rotterdam.

Ramavtar Goenka: India and Kenya have had a relationship since the 1900s when many Indians went there to build the railway line between Uganda and Kenya. Many Gujarati traders also settled there and 70% of them have Kenyan citizenship. I have had a chemical factory in Kenya for 40 years. The Birla group, as you know, has the biggest paper mill in the whole of Africa in Kenya. The Tatas have a soda plant in East Africa and they export soda ash from Kenya to India. There are many small industries there as well, run by Indians.
Besides, lots of Indian tourists go to Kenya on holiday for the safaris. They won’t miss India as there are Indian restaurants and culture everywhere! So India and Kenya have good business and tourism relations.

We did have some law and order problems A couple of years ago, but it is all peaceful now, though tourism was affected. Kenya exports tea and coffee to the world, which was not affected.
Sidharth Bhatia: You are all based in Mumbai which is India’s financial capital. What growth have you seen in trade, investment and tourism?

Wan Zaidi Abdullah, Malaysia: No doubt, Mumbai is the financial hub and has all the investment opportunities. I have been here just over two years and have seen significant expansion of the existing trade relations. Malaysian companies are now coming to western India, which traditionally was not connected to Malaysia. Most of our trade so far was with the southern and eastern regions of India. Now, three or four construction companies have set up office here, they are in collaborations to build India’s first monorail project in Mumbai, as well as portions of the Mumbai-Pune expressway among other projects.

Petronas Lubricants, Malaysia’s premier oil company is opening an office in Pune to produce and plan lubricants for the Indian markets. There has also been significant Indian investment in Malaysia. Reliance has purchased a factory in Malaysia to produce polyester. There are many Indian companies in Malaysia.

Tourism from India has been growing significantly over the years. Last year, we received 550,000 tourists from India. We place India in the top 10 tourist arrivals to Malaysia. Some from south India go to Malaysia for employment but from western India mainly for business or as tourists. It’s very encouraging and we expect the numbers to increase.

Sidharth Bhatia: How is the Dutch flower trade with India?

Hans Ramakar: Sadly not good enough — Apeda has closed its office to promote Indian flowers for auction in the Netherlands. The quality of Indian flowers was obviously not good enough to compete with flowers from Kenya and Ethiopia. But there are some flower growers in Himalayan areas and a few around Pune and Mumbai which exports to the Netherlands. Netherlands comes in the top five investors in India which is quite good. Although we are small country, we are the third largest exporters of agriculture products to the world. Small and medium companies are now also coming to India. It is a big risk for them but they see opportunity.

Unfortunately I may sound critical but we sometimes feel that it is difficult for investors to come to India. We do not have one stop window to start a business here. Even visas create problems.

Ramavtar Goenka, Kenya: Kenya is known for its game parks and is quite close to India — just six hours away from Mumbai. It’s also very well connected, with a minimum of three flights a day. Lot of tourists from India go to Kenya for a holiday. It is not very expensive unlike Europe and America. There are five star hotels in the forest and direct flights from Nairobi to the game parks. Due to this tourism, there are also a lot of business opportunities. Lots of people go there to start small and medium scale industries. There are big chemical factories, paper mills, and cement factories. There are lots of opportunities. This is a growing country with a 3.5 crore population there.

Rajshri Mehta (DNA): I have a question about the problem with growing Islamic fundamentalism, the killing of Theo Van Gogh and the case of Ayaan Hirsi Ali in Netherlands. What is the situation like now?

Hans Ramakar, Netherlands: It’s a tricky question. Let me give you an honest answer. Our population is about 17 million of which 1 million is Muslim, largely labour which was imported from the Mediterranean rim in the 1950s and 60s, mainly from Morocco and Turkey. They are different from each other and do not integrate the same way, if they integrate at all. There are frictions because of that. Then there radical Dutch groups — like in every country in the world, we also have radicals. That is the cause of most problems. We are a free country. Some people believe the tolerance has gone too far. We still want to accept many cultures and be tolerant. Unfortunately, radicalism does not easily go away. Nowadays it is strange to talk to discuss radicalism in terms of states. It is a global problem. We have to work on it together.

Amberish Diwanji (DNA): Malaysia also had a problem with the Bhoomiputra policy that affected Indians a lot?

Abdullah, Malaysia: Yes. After we had racial problems during the 1960s, the government came out with a new economic policy. For example, distribution of job opportunities has now been prioritised towards the Malay to correct historic wrongs. If you look at Malaysia’s socio-economic indicators, the Malays have always been at the bottom. But certain Indian communities, who may have been working in plantations, did feel that some resentment. These are new groups, so-called Hindu groups. The ruling government comprises of the Malaysian Indian Congress, the Malaysian Chinese Association and the United Malays National Organisation. It has been so since independence. So to some extent, the discrimination against Hindus is exaggerated. One particular group organised a demonstration and which was not given permission by the police and the problem started. The official Malaysian government says the claims are far from the truth. The Chinese control 90% of the industry — they cannot claim to be second class citizens. The privileges are in the constitution to provide balance to society so no group is worse off.

Rajshri Mehta (DNA): Did or does Kenya face problems like Uganda because of the large Indian presence?

Ramavtar Goenka, Kenya: Uganda’s problem was different. Kenyans are very friendly with Indians. Gujarati is practically the second language there.

Wan Zaidi Abdullah, Malaysia: Sometimes ethnic groups stick together. Interestingly, the Indian community in Malaysia has a high proportion of lawyers and doctors, even if it is small, numbers-wise.

Sidharth Bhatia: Thank you so much for taking time off to tell us about your respective countries. DNA is holding a series of such conversations with different groups for the benefit of our readers. This has been a stimulating discussion which I am sure our readers will have enjoyed. Thank you once again.