Grievance redressal can be a common man's Lokpal: Nikhil Dey

Q You are here to mark Right to Know (RTK) Day. Why is it important?
A Right to Know is something like UN declaration of human rights. For human rights, it is vital (for one) to know. No other right can you access unless you know something.

Q Is there a difference between RTK and RTI?
A Right to Know transcends issues of RTI. It is not question of 'suchna ka adhikar', it is 'jankari'. It is processed information that takes one from transparency to accountability. RTI gets access to information. How do I make it to actionable points, change culture of secrecy to openness is knowledge. Information may be a black and white sheet of paper but demystification of documents is part of RTK. It is going from facts to values. A person may be getting X wage but the value of it is knowledge. India as a modern country has taken the leadership of slowly moving into that movement and it makes the discourse on RTK richer. Our courts have acknowledged that. The discourse has changed from Article 19 to Article 14 that talk of equal rights. The basis of equal right is to know about rights that could be related to ones land, raising grievance or something else.

Q How is RTI Act performing?
A There are three major segments to judge it — the people including activist and media, the government and commissions. People have been fantastic. They have managed to get all kinds of scams exposed, keep control on future scams. Over 50 lakh applications are filed which is a phenomenal number. At the government end, effective usage of RTI would have made the government extremely progressive, increased efficiency but no state government has shown any commitment to suo motu disclosure. With respect to commissions, barring a few notable exceptions, most others have been disappointing. They are supposed to be on the side of people and make sure that information is provided.

Q The penetration of the Act has not increased as expected. It is still around one per cent. Often government is blamed for not doing enough. What is the way forward?
A Firstly, it is bad analysis. One per cent is a huge number for any Act's usage. No other Act in India is used so proactively. NREGA or those for ration are there, but they are for just that. So, that evaluation is not correct but there is room for improvement. In rural areas the usage is less but so is literacy and people's power fight out. One RTI application transforms the village. Each RTI application is thus a mini revolution. It is a transformatory right. People right now are getting frustrated because action is not taking place on the information they produce. Courts have not been progressive. There needs to be pressure on court that they be progressive. There can be no bargaining with courts on transparency. The Act is being penetrated to the next generation by getting it into the curriculum and school children using it. We are also having programmes.

Q Has impact of RTI changed in terms of it being grievance redressal mechanism to something beyond that for common citizens?
A It is a very important question. The tragedy is that we do not have grievance redressal. Citizens use RTI for it because they do not have any other thing for grievance redressal. Maharashtra has passed a law for service delivery but still there is nothing for grievance redressal. A grievance redressal mechanism will make supervisors responsible. It should be synergetic with the RTI. Citizen can ask information under RTI and seek action under grievance redresaal. It will be ordinary citizens Lokpal. For grand corruption you need Lokpal Law. These laws are passed with Whistle Blower Protection for safety of people but they are not implemented. It is a crime. They should be answering to people for that. People grievance not being met is the worst thing. Officers get salaries for. RTI is not magic wand and needs support through other laws and their implementation.

Q The government is giving an impression that delay in online disbursal of information is because it is uploading and evolving the system which is taking time. What is your impression of this explanation?
A Let me give you an example of MNREGA. On this one programme, government is spending Rs40,000 crores. However, all of it is online right to the remote village level be it in Manipur, Badmer. Everything is online and almost on all real-time basis. There is no reason all of India or government of Maharasthra cannot be online where they have all the computers and everything else for going online. Earlier, when Freedom of Information Act was there, they would say England took eight years and we will take longer. It never got implemented. Then came RTI and we said it will get implemented in 120 days. It has been implemented and government has not collapsed due to it. It is just an excuse. Blackmailing and harassment will stop if government does suo motu disclosure but they are extremely disappointing. In Rajasthan we have painted walls that give details of benefits people get under MNREGA.

Q How has been the RTI story after the new establishment?
A Extremely disappointing! There can be no excuse at their end because one thing they were voted for was to get rid of corruption. They were fully in support of RTI Act and they promised grievance redressal once they come in. Today, we are facing crisis. The earlier government tried to amend a law it passed and BJP has been extremely regressive. They did not appoint chief commissioner for a long time and new commissioner has very short tenure. Ten years of RTI is a significant milestone. Instead of going forward, they are actually dragging their feet and hiding more. They made a big issue of Congress in corruption and we do not know what is going on right now because they are not transparent. How do we know they are not corrupt? Even talking to bureaucrats has become difficult.

Q Last time the RTI convention did not take place. This year, there is likelihood of it happening. What do you look forward in it?
A I believe that PM is also coming. Even if he is not, then 10 years is very big for RTI. There is a time for a quantum leap. We manage to get a foot in the door and not it is time that it is totally open to us. There is a great opportunity to come forward, allow people to participate in making law and make this a movement. This is an opportunity to involve citizens.

Q In Rajasthan, school children are now doing social audit. Can you tell us something about it?
A Around 75,000 applications are put by students and parents in every district and block. That information is being used to enforce RTE. In Rajasthan there is also Right to Hearing which is like grievance redressal where they can take up these issues for follow ups. It is great way of initiating movement for better society, better health education and better social parameters.

Q What is the best way in which citizens can take this Act forward?
A I think we need renewed energy. There is flagging off and frustration growing among people but if we look back at what we have won and achieved in 10 years, it will create a renewed movement. Politicians and bureaucrats are working to undermine this. By connecting various other laws to RTI and synchronising all of them, we can have better results through social audits.