Congress is down but not out, does not function as a sultanate: Ghulam Nabi Azad

Kartikeya Sharma speaks with Opposition leader in Rajya Sabha, Ghulam Nabi Azad about Gujarat RS elections, BJP's strategy, Rahul Gandhi's leadership, path ahead for Congress and more.

What is the takeaway for Congress after Ahmed Patel won the election?

Truth has won. We had surplus votes in the state. We even had votes from other parties. When the BJP knew that we had numbers, why did they have to nominate a third candidate. It shows that they wanted to steal our numbers. They used everything under the sun to win the election and tried to steal our elected members. But I would like to thank the Election Commission and those who didn’t sway under the pressure of money. The EC kept democracy alive and ensured their credibility survive.

Are you surprised with BJP's aggressive tactics?

I’m not surprised. I also went through the same experience where BJP tried to lure away MLAs. The difference is that this got discussed during Ahmed Patel’s re-election. They also tried a similar tactic during my elections.

But if you see, the process also shows that India has a divided Opposition.

They try to purchase those who can. BJP has been using such tactics to win elections. Those who cannot be purchased, cases are filed against them. They have repeatedly resorted to using state machinery to influence electoral process.

Isn’t it a sign of weakness of the Opposition and your party that you can be broken so easily? Look what happened in Bihar.

The government doesn’t believe in the democratic process. In democracy, you live and let live. Here the mantra is, live and kill.

What about the statement of your colleague Jairam Ramesh where he used the word ‘Sultanate’ to describe state of affairs in the Congress?

I don’t agree with him. There is no Sultanate mode of governance. If that was the case then he (Jairam) would have no access to the leadership which Jairam enjoys today.

But if you look at Parliament, even the Houses don’t function properly

It shows that the Opposition is alive and kicking. It shows that we aren’t dead. It is our job to raise issues of national importance. How can you have two types of notes in the country.

Can’t the relationship between the two parties be civil?

There is a difference between today and yesterday. Relationship between the Opposition and the government can be good. For it, the philosophy should be live and let live and cannot be live and kill others. When you have an approach of this nature then how do you sit across the table and talk.  This is the difference.

Morarji and Atal Bihari were different types of Prime Ministers and situations like this never existed.

There have been non-Congress Prime Ministers but Opposition was never harassed. Political rivalry has turned into personal enmity. But if you make it personal and start attacking people and their families then things become difference and that too when state machinery is utilised to harass Opposition leaders.

Can Congress revive itself?

Congress is down but not out. We have seen many ups and downs.

Where is the problem?

The leaders in the state will have to believe in themselves. The habit of doing the work only to show the top leaders that you are working has become a disease in the party. We work in the Parliament but we don’t ask our leadership every morning and evening as what we should do and what we are doing. If I’m made Leader of Opposition then I’m supposed to use my own brain to do the job. The same should be applicable to general secretary and other posts in the party. I took many decisions but didn’t ask Congress President all the time. This habit that everything would be done after taking clearance from the top doesn’t work. How can leaders take all the calls at all the levels? People in the party should be aware of their jobs and should know the responsibility of it.

Is Rahul Gandhi a reluctant leader?

No. Rahul Gandhi is not a reluctant leader.

Why hasn’t he taken over the party and become the president?

Designations don’t define leadership. This is the BJP’s agenda. They want to belittle Rahul Gandhi and treat and project him non-seriously so that it leads to in-fighting in the Congress Party. We shouldn't get into this trap. I work with him. Not once Rahul asked me as to why I did something which I wanted to do. I don’t want to take names but those who have been given responsibilities, are they doing justice to their positions?

Then how come senior leaders and former CMs are leaving the Congress?

Most of them were outsiders. Whether it is Himanta Biswa Sarma or Bahuguna. Vijay Bahuguna was a judge. They have migrated to greener pastures. Even Vaghela came from BJP. Most of them are from the non-Congress stock. They decided to move because political situation has changed.

Do you have a roadmap for the revival of the party? The way Congress organized conclaves in Shimla and Panchmani.

Conclaves like these will take place. It takes time.

Do you feel that Congress also suffered electorally because Rahul Gandhi got portrayed as someone who isn’t a practicing Hindu? Do you agree with this proposition?

I don’t agree. It has nothing to do with religion. There cannot be a good Hindu or a bad Hindu. The real reason for our defeat is that we were in power for 10 years and unlike earlier times things changed rapidly. We have a new aspirational India today which wasn’t the case then. It was easier to win an election earlier. You could do it by announcing a primary school. Then on top of it you have a political rival which uses the aspiration of the young and simultaneously exploits religious sentiment, then you have a problem. Fact is that everything cannot and could not be delivered. This was the reason for our defeat. And then you can be a practicing Hindu and still have secular approach in public life which is to respect and accommodate other religions. BJP wants to polarize the voters.

Moving on to Kashmir, what is your take on the present situation? Should talks take place?

We discussed Kashmir thrice but this government doesn’t have a plan or roadmap for Kashmir and Pakistan. My understanding is that the government wants to finish Kashmir economically. They want a solution through military and not politically.

What should the Centre do? Do you expect them to talk to the separatists?

No. It is a question of hope. We used to say that we would talk to Pakistan, Hurriyat and every other political party. We gave hope to people. We spoke to Pakistan when it was possible. We focused on trade. We generated hope that things are moving in the right direction. This government has taken knee jerk reactions. Now the government says that the trade is financing the Hurriyat so trade is being stopped. Smuggling takes place through ports but has any port been closed?

But border trade is being used to finance stone-pelters and terrorists?

Then you should target the culprit and not close the trade completely. This reflects your failure. It should be tackled properly rather being stopped completely.

Congress is being blamed for not creating a positive agenda. For example, even today the speech on ‘Quit India’ was more about RSS-BJP.

Quit India was also about multiple freedoms. Tell me where is religious freedom or freedom of press today. We have the right to mention the issues which concern us. That’s what was done today.

Finally, is there a new guard in Congress. Is there one Congress or two Congress parties?

There is only one Congress. Congress has the capacity to work at the time with three generations.